Talk:Simple LSA extraction: Difference between revisions

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update: I found another use of garlic added to the water durring extraction here [https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/ovbyc/cold_water_extraction_of_lsa_from_morning_glory/ Cold water extraction of LSA from morning glory seeds - Garlic! MSM! : Drugs] I should have searched Morning Glory as well as woodrose?

== Is cyanide really the cause of the nausea? ==

Hawaiian Baby Woodrose-induced nausea doesn't seem to fit with alleged cyanide poisoning.

If it was the case, that cyanogenic glycosides were responsible, then simply grinding the seeds and letting them sit should take care of it. Plants store these glycosides as defense against predation, and contain enzymes to produce cyanide when chewed. But once produced, the cyanide escapes as a gas. A lot of crops that humans eat contain these glycosides, and for cassava, simple boiling in water is known to remove >96%

of cyanogens (Ngudi DD, et al. (2003) Food and Chemical Toxicology; 41: 1193-1197.)

I should point out that many crops, like broccoli, also contain glucosinolates, which are considered to be a major source of health benefits (Das, Amrish et al. CURRENT SCIENCE, VOL. 79, NO. 12, 25 DECEMBER 2000 p1665), despite the production of isothiocyanites in the same manner as the glycosides.

Garlic does seem to have an effect on the lethality of cyanide (Comp Clin Pathol (2006) 15:211–213) in rats, due to some sulfur compound (garlic is all sulfur compounds it seems). But it seems unnecessary here, and would add an off-note to your cocktail.

So while the treatment of the seeds still makes sense IF cyanide is the source, even if it's not the best treatment, the question remains: does this protocol reduce the nausea? The sickness I experienced fits more with the usual alkaloid upset that comes with eating random plant parts. So far there is nothing to suggest it works, that I've seen.

This protocol may work anyway, if there is some alkaloid that is destroyed by soaking in the presence of a little garlic oil. I just hate to see drug lore invented when there's no evidence that cyanide is the source of the nausea. It will just lead to crazy theories about cyanide causing bad trips and kids smearing themselves with garlic paste.

:[[User:Scrofula|@Scrofula]] Thank you for the detailed comments. I was not here when this guide was made but have been editing it recently and was not sure about the cyanide/nausea claims. I've changed the wording a little bit to something that might seem more fair? Or do you think the reference to cyanide should be removed completely? Is it fair to call LSA as an unpredictable nausea producing agent? It is not part of my field of expertise. [[User:Clarity|Clarity]] ([[User talk:Clarity|talk]]) 01:05, 2 June 2017 (CEST)

:[[user:Clarity|@Clarity]] Sorry, my notifications were going to my super-sekrit email that I never check, and I'm knew to Wiki editing. Problem is that the whole protocol is based on removing cyanide from the seeds--the author cites "cyanogenic glycosides" and a garlic addition to remove it. I know from experience these seeds will make you retch, hard, and it sounds anecdotally to be predictable, but if that was from cyanide, I'd expect other symptoms too, like death. And then I wonder, how do we know this protocol even works? I guess I'm also too new to know what your guidelines are for posting protocols, so I'll take a look.

::{{ping|Scrofula}} No worries Scrofula! The more I think about this the more I find it fairly unlikely that the garlic-cyanogenic glycosides part actually has scientific validity. I have done an internet search which seems to suggest this is more drug-folklore and placebo-based. If anything, I think just performing the basic extraction itself and the seemingly large range in natural variations in one's response to LSA could just as easily account for the nausea reduction. Personally, I am not in the mood to run any experiments to confirm either way so I am thinking of just reformatting the guide so that it mentions the garlic part as an option that some claim helps. If you have any other ideas or can find evidence that supports either case, please do let me know. [[User:Clarity|Clarity]] ([[User talk:Clarity|talk]]) 06:07, 11 June 2017 (CEST)

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 update: I found another use of garlic added to the water durring extraction here [https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/ovbyc/cold_water_extraction_of_lsa_from_morning_glory/ Cold water extraction of LSA from morning glory seeds - Garlic! MSM! : Drugs] I should have searched Morning Glory as well as woodrose?
+== Is cyanide really the cause of the nausea? ==
+Hawaiian Baby Woodrose-induced nausea doesn't seem to fit with alleged cyanide poisoning.
+If it was the case, that cyanogenic glycosides were responsible, then simply grinding the seeds and letting them sit should take care of it.  Plants store these glycosides as defense against predation, and contain enzymes to produce cyanide when chewed.  But once produced, the cyanide escapes as a gas.  A lot of crops that humans eat contain these glycosides, and for cassava, simple boiling in water is known to remove >96%
+of cyanogens (Ngudi DD, et al. (2003) Food and Chemical Toxicology; 41: 1193-1197.)
+I should point out that many crops, like broccoli, also contain glucosinolates, which are considered to be a major source of health benefits (Das, Amrish et al. CURRENT SCIENCE, VOL. 79, NO. 12, 25 DECEMBER 2000 p1665), despite the production of isothiocyanites in the same manner as the glycosides.
+Garlic does seem to have an effect on the lethality of cyanide (Comp Clin Pathol (2006) 15:211–213) in rats, due to some sulfur compound (garlic is all sulfur compounds it seems).  But it seems unnecessary here, and would add an off-note to your cocktail.
+So while the treatment of the seeds still makes sense IF cyanide is the source, even if it's not the best treatment, the question remains: does this protocol reduce the nausea?  The sickness I experienced fits more with the usual alkaloid upset that comes with eating random plant parts.  So far there is nothing to suggest it works, that I've seen.
+This protocol may work anyway, if there is some alkaloid that is destroyed by soaking in the presence of a little garlic oil.  I just hate to see drug lore invented when there's no evidence that cyanide is the source of the nausea.  It will just lead to crazy theories about cyanide causing bad trips and kids smearing themselves with garlic paste.
+:[[User:Scrofula|@Scrofula]] Thank you for the detailed comments. I was not here when this guide was made but have been editing it recently and was not sure about the cyanide/nausea claims. I've changed the wording a little bit to something that might seem more fair? Or do you think the reference to cyanide should be removed completely? Is it fair to call LSA as an unpredictable nausea producing agent? It is not part of my field of expertise. [[User:Clarity|Clarity]] ([[User talk:Clarity|talk]]) 01:05, 2 June 2017 (CEST)
+:[[user:Clarity|@Clarity]] Sorry, my notifications were going to my super-sekrit email that I never check, and I'm knew to Wiki editing.  Problem is that the whole protocol is based on removing cyanide from the seeds--the author cites "cyanogenic glycosides" and a garlic addition to remove it.  I know from experience these seeds will make you retch, hard, and it sounds anecdotally to be predictable, but if that was from cyanide, I'd expect other symptoms too, like death.  And then I wonder, how do we know this protocol even works?  I guess I'm also too new to know what your guidelines are for posting protocols, so I'll take a look.
+::{{ping|Scrofula}} No worries Scrofula! The more I think about this the more I find it fairly unlikely that the garlic-cyanogenic glycosides part actually has scientific validity. I have done an internet search which seems to suggest this is more drug-folklore and placebo-based. If anything, I think just performing the basic extraction itself and the seemingly large range in natural variations in one's response to LSA could just as easily account for the nausea reduction. Personally, I am not in the mood to run any experiments to confirm either way so I am thinking of just reformatting the guide so that it mentions the garlic part as an option that some claim helps. If you have any other ideas or can find evidence that supports either case, please do let me know. [[User:Clarity|Clarity]] ([[User talk:Clarity|talk]]) 06:07, 11 June 2017 (CEST)